Relaying a Message

I often say that the vast majority of Scientologists are terrific people who are trying to improve the planet.  The only one I’ve ever met and disliked was Dennis Clarke because he is just a bully and would be even without Hubbard’s tech. 

But the sane and rational conversations never happen in our videotaped encounters because Scientologists are instructed to “always attack, never defend.”  That’s why it’s so nice to meet someone like Billy Sheehan who believes in communication.

Now here is another Scientologist, who believes his/her fellow members should behave more like Billy.  This person got banned from a YouTube discussion thread and asked me to pass this along.  I don’t personally believe in banning and do it only for spam and threats of violence.

I posted this on your Scientology Crazy Followers video: 

I must say I am disappointed in my fellow Scientologists. First off, if the street is open to the public, its open to the public. 

Secondly, the first policy is to maintain friendly relations with the environment and the public and especially so if you have a camera in your face you are dealing with the public, b/c thats who sees these videos. They aint thinkin too far in the future on this one. 

And third, these Q’s are for use IN a session w/ the purpose to HELP someone, not to harass & punish them. 

And Butterflygrrl posted this reply: 

“I am mocking up my own reactive mind.” 

“Now I know what I am not and I am ready to find out what I am.” 

Those are the Clear and OT8 Cognitions, respectively. 

Do they sound like they’re worth all that money? 

And before I could reply to her (him) I was blocked from posting comments both by Butterflygrrl and the host of the video Valarauko. So, would you please relay the following message to Buttfuckgrrl for me as I am sure you will not be banned/blocked. 

FYI — Im one of those free thinking Scientologists who isnt afraid to speak out or reply to these hostile intolerants who chant hatred from ignorance. I know Scientology has issues, but on a whole I am certain there is something to the tech and that it can help. Nobody tells me I can or cant go on the internet and I am not in Doubt about being a Scientologist. I have DONE the formula. I am in the top 5% of trained individuals in my area and I have taken ample look at both sides of the fence. 

Please forward the following to butterflygrrl: 

As a typical, I was not able to reply to you on the page that you commented on my prior comment. Seems the host for that video banned me from making any further comments. 

Man is that annoying. I tend to think its because the hosts are pussies. Usually, when I find fault in the logic of these people that make these hostile videos, I leave a comment. I point out errors and illogic and theyre response is usually first delete my comment and then to ban me after replying with some childish attack which also has errors in logic. What pussies. I guess it goes with the tone levels of invalidating/hostile/irresponsible and, of course, coward or as I like to say, pussy. 

My reply to you was the following: 

If you have really taken an honest look at something and its not for you then its not for you. For you to attempt to evaluate for me if its for me is Wrong Source. 

I make those evaluations. It sounds like your communication is from the invalidation/nullify band of attempted persuasion. 

I get enough (so very much) from Scientology that I have decided to BE a Scientologist. I’m not really interested in your invalidating bent. It’s not your decision. 

I’ll make up my own mind, thank you. 

Also, those are confidential cognitions, so I totally get that your being a dick by revealing these “cognitions” to me because you think it will annoy me or scare me or something along these lines. And I have to evaluate at what tone level that communication comes from, is it genuine concern? No, again, its a pathetic invalidation and an attempt to spread fear. These evaluations are fully covered in Science of Survival. 

Do you even realize how insensitive you’re being or are you on a totally automatic death and destruction rampage? Do you have such a need to be right that you have to make others wrong? Can you not allow others to make their own decisions and allow them the right to make they’re own spiritual choices? Well, Scn can help you with that. Ha. 

I would recommend that you read The Way to Happiness, one precept summarizes to Do unto others… another states, Don’t do to others what you would not want done to you. There is one other, Respect the religious beliefs of others. You should take a look at those. 

So, unless you can change you tone/attitude I don’t wish to communicate further. 

Good day. 

Thank you, Mark, for relaying this communication. I would have replied directly, but it seems they couldnt stand to tolerate a reply and so blocked me before I could respond (within 30 minutes). And because I am choosing to relay this communication through you doesnt mean were in communication but I have a feeling you will relay the message. 

Please allow me to apologize for those dimwits on the video who have misapplied tech and policy in attempting to handle you. My philosophy is communication is the Universal Solvent, and tolerance and understanding. I wish Scientology would address SOME of the issues that are made against them. I strongly believe they are doing far more good than harm, but I dont believe that the statement greatest good can justify human rights violations and is in itself only a Justification for overts committed. 

The Ends do not justify the Means. 

Throughsoul

Now, I don’t agree with this person’s arguments and I think the reply has more than a tinge of the anger this person believes shouldn’t be on display in the videos but it’s a perfectly acceptable communication and there’s no reason to ban someone over anything that was said.

I would argue that it’s pretty hypocritical to say people should be free to make the choice of Scientology but then the group dedicates itself to destroying psychiatry.   Shouldn’t people be free to choose that as well?

And as with most of Hubbard’s public writings in the Creed of the Scientologist or the Way to Happiness, when he says man has the right to think freely and speak freely” he really means “except when you speak against us.”

And when he writes that man has the right to the religion of his choice, it really is just a fancy way to say, “Leave us alone.”

Explore posts in the same categories: New Voices

21 Comments on “Relaying a Message”

  1. Bill W Says:

    I am sure Tom will have something to say about this person. However, I will put money on the fact that Tom is more worried about ANON than anything else. Of couse, maybe Tom had his fun at all our expense and is now gloating on his blog about his “world famous troll” of Mark. Scientologists never see the truth for what it really has turned into. Once again as with all organized “religions”, the truth is for sale. For a scienologist the truth is worth about $300,000. Right Tory??

  2. Anonymous Says:

    Well, he’s more sane than most, but still crazy ’cause he believes the Tech made by that fraud works.

  3. RB Says:

    I also have points of disagreements with this argument – though I see no reason for censoring it.

    I should respect other people’s religious beliefs? Why? If I believed that tiny leprechauns living 45 feet below the surface of Stockholm are controlling the global economy, would you *respect* this belief just because I believe it? I would hope not, because it is a completely absurd belief. But what if I organized my life around this belief – praying to the leprechauns for my country’s currency to excel, for my industry to pull through, and so on; making business decisions based on the ratio of clovers to non-clovers in my Lucky Charms; going to Stolkholm annually for the yearly leprechaun dig,….. Is the idea any less silly because I have deeply invested in it?

    And what about when beliefs have implications for policy and international affairs (e.g., the Middle East; gay, women’s and apostate rights; scientific research and education)? Do I pretend that the belief that an all powerful, all good,all knowing God divinely and asexually impregnated a woman (without consent) with – get ready for it – himself, in order to instruct men to not be as barbaric as God himself has been, and to die for the sins of man because, unless he does, people will be subjected to an eternity of torture by – ready for it? – him! Yeah, these beliefs are clearly among the best ones that humanity has ever confronted and absolutely should be foundational pillars of consideration on how all of us – consenting or not – live. They absolutely deserve respect!

    We can criticize shoddy thinking regarding politics, sports, social interactions, day-to-day activity, academics, and so on, but religion. Nooooo. That’s special. We must respect it (read: submit our free speech to belief communities), even when these communities interject their religious ideas into the public arena so as to apply them to others.

    Regarding the Do unto others…. I can easily criticize religious beliefs without losing sleep over violating the Golden Rule because a fair, compassionate and civil society absolutely requires an honest exchange of ideas. This is a two-way street. If my beliefs are affecting others – as religious beliefs do – people have every right to openly and honestly criticize them. And even if they’re entirely private, I don’t see why they should respect my beliefs just because I believe them.

  4. John Says:

    This is probably just Mr. Newton pulling another prank or trolling.

    Any rational “free thinking” Scio who can look at both sides must have left the Cult by now.

  5. 3rdman Says:

    John:
    I disagree. Doesn’t match Tom’s style of writing. And the guy gave a real username you can identify on youtube. Through that, you can track down other comments he has left on videos if you need more proof.

    I’m quite impressed with his response. He does seem to have a more positive interpretation of Hubbard’s writings. If anything, he maybe just leaving out some of Hubbard’s bullshit and choosing only to follow the parts that aren’t destructive. Nothing wrong with that.

    Indeed, Hubbard’s intent was to lie to and control his followers to make money, but it seems Throughsoul internet writer is amongst few Scientologists who see something wrong in Scientology and how it poorly treats others. Like Mac Stevens. A good sign and I hope more Scientologists like this fella emerge in the future, and that this fellow becomes more aware as time passes.

  6. 3rdman Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/throughsoul

    Here be his youtube channel if anyone would like to chat with him.

  7. Shimmy Shapiro Says:

    A scientologist may agree to disagree with opponents and may defend his cult by saying, that there are two sides to every story. He may state that L.Ron Hubbard was just a man and capable of mistakes like any other. Then what is left to talk about? There is a huge library of scientology literature promising followers special abilities through auditing for which they charge carloads of money. None of these special abilities have ever been seen. While Billy may tell us that he thinks for himself, were he truly a decent man he would be siding with Anonymous, Mark Bunker, Me and all the others who want this fraud to come to an end. Being cool and saying that he can respect someone elses point of view in the face of persistent fraud is not enough.

  8. Rabidtreeweasel Says:

    Having been in a cult myself (fundies), I see in Billie’s writing the potential of someone who may one day leave. Then again, if all they encounter from Sci’s opposition is bitterness, hostility, and “Hey $ci fag!,” then it may take them longer to leave. Being called stupid and ignorant by people outside of my immediate circle only caused me to turn to the group.
    Posters should be careful in how they treat the members of the organization. It’s their task masters, and not the church members, that deserve our ire. People like Billie deserve compassion. They certainly deserve their right to speak up, especially if they’re testing the waters of sanity.

  9. Ladybug Says:

    May be glad to be a Scientologist, but is he happy that Scientology abuses people. What bothers me most of all are the children in Scientology, they have no choice.

  10. Jerry Says:

    RB, you are spot on. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    From the language in the e-mail (excessive use of the word pussy), I’m starting to think that this may have come from the woman scientologist in Minneapolis:)

  11. anon Says:

    Seems like a nice enough guy, but either he’s a good actor, or just plain ignorant. I was a harassed by the fair game policy in the Clearwater protest, I was being followed and stalked by a scientologist in an SUV with a camera, and a scarf around his nose and mouth while I was driving back home. Long story short he confronted me and said, “You aren’t anonymous anymore I know your license plate #.”

  12. Cornelius Futz Says:

    http://physics.about.com/b/2007/09/19/physics-myth-month-einstein-failed-mathematics.htm

    Einstein did not fail math! This is a popular myth, which is obviously attractive to Scientologists, to justify Ron flunking out of George Washington University. However, it doesn’t justify Ron or his followers claiming he was a nuclear physicist or scientist of any sort. That is strictly the delusion of Ron and his followers.

    Ron was a pompous blowhard who bought a mail-order doctorate from the Sequoia buy-a-diploma U. TO DECEIVE, which isn’t the same as doing real study. Scientologists are deluded in believing their studies are in some way equivalent to academic studies, as many floundering college students are invited to drop their studies and take up Scientology. Thus, you have stuff like, “The Philadelphia Doctoral Course…” (Make me barf!)

    Billy needs to try to distinguish propaganda from facts, which is hard to do, if you are brainwashed.

    Let’s assume Ron was a genius, and just bored in school, or pissed off at some teachers, which accounts for Einstein having mediocre grades, in some subjects. The point is, Ron never went on to do high level scientific, mathematical, or academic work in ANY field. He didn’t influence high level thinkers in any scientific or mental health field. The only people he influenced are his deluded followers.

    I don’t believe Billy read Bare-Faced Messiah. He doesn’t seem dumb, but he sounds confused, and makes the kind of circular and nonsensical self-contradictory arguments that Scientologists tend to make. At least he’s trying to communicate. If he does more of that, he may step off the bridge eventually. He can’t be in that much of a hurry if it has taken him 38 years to be an OTIII.

    There is nothing profound or difficult to understand in the OTIII materials, as he claims. To compare it to something advanced, dense, or complicated is ridiculous.

  13. Cornelius Futz Says:

    Here are some of the things that are apparently brainwashed into Scientologists:

    1. The only source for truth about Scientology, on the internet, is from Scientology’s official propaganda site. Everything else about Scientology, or about anything(!), can’t be trusted solely because it is on the internet.

    2. When Scientology does something wrong, it is because of a bad apple, and they deal with it internally or always turn it over to the proper authorities. Like Ron, the organization is incapable of doing anything unethical. When confronted with the fact Ron wrote Fair Game, blanks out, resorts to nonsensical arguments. They are the most ethical people on the planet, and that’s that. Never mind that a leader who comes up with a policy like that in the first place, is crazy with power and greed.

    3. When Scientology is caught telling lies, or covertly infiltrating governments or businesses, it is always the fault of the media or government, who set them up. In other words, Scientology institutionalizes paranoia. According to someone like Billy, Ron and Scientology’s policies have always been so good and honest, wanting only the best for EVERYONE, even when they don’t.

  14. Cornelius Futz Says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoia_University

    Hey Billy,

    If you really read Bare-Faced, you’d be confronted with literally hundreds of details that provide facts and testimony to contradict the lies of Hubbard being a self-taught scholar, “blood-brother” to the Blackfoot and on and on. More than that, these hundreds of lies point to Hubbard being a fraud, a huckster, and not an honest person. He lied constantly, about himself, and about Scientology.

    How can you account for him claiming he self-healed from blindness(!) and lameness, from war injuries, yet his military medical records show he had an ulcer, and some minor things.

    Read this one little detail, about his purchase of a doctorate, then after being called out on it by one too many reporter, the justification he dreams up for retracting it. This is why Hubbard is laughable to so many intelligent people in the world.

  15. Xenumania Says:

    Hey Mark, Magoo, and Billy,

    That was an interesting interview, but something was overlooked I think. Maybe you knew this, maybe not.

    Remember the infamous OSA “Frosty Ice Co.” truck that showed up to several protests in the past? You should remember Mark because in a video, you were trying to get video footage by holding your camera up and pointing it into the tinted windows at the top of the truck.

    You can see the video here:

    That SAME truck was parked in the parking lot behind “Billy”. In the video, you can see it off to the left several times.

    Do you think it is possible Billy was lying about him not being planted there? Look at how close the “Frosty Ice Co.” truck was parked to you guys.

  16. Xenumania Says:

    …or was that video footage shot on the same day at the same protest? Either way, my intuition tells me that possibly “Billy” was put there to do that interview knowing the video would make it to the internet. They may have wanted it to seem that Scientology is “normal” and not abusive by putting “Billy” out there.

    Billy seemed to be a likable guy and seemed extremely moderate compared to most other scientologists we have seen on video.

    Perhaps that was their goal; To make scientology seem much more moderate.

  17. Cornelius Futz Says:

    About the ice truck. Isn’t it weird with Scientology, how practically everything about it, isn’t necessarily what it appears to be, even when an active Scientologist like Billy seems forthcoming. I think it has to do with their training that they lie and mislead as a tactic. Ordinary members of other religions may do that inadvertently, but they don’t do it as part of their training.

  18. Xenumania Says:

    “THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them…..”

    -L. Ron Hubbard, “Technique 88”

  19. anonymous Says:

    Mark,
    send that individual over to why we protest. There message will be heard.

  20. Ironhead Says:

    I don’t understand the point in banning anyone just because you don’t like the comments they post.

    I’ve made a few vids, on my channel ironhead097 and every comment since day one has stayed on those vids good or bad.

    I’m on the other side of the spectrum, and I do agree with this scilon about butterflygrrl, he/she has displayed a fair bit of douchebaggery on my channel too.

  21. Lyman Infinger Says:

    that just sucks. I thought the Soul Train LIne was the do-not-ever-miss section of the show ‘cos the chicks were sexy with giving the impression of the hootchies today along with the guys were always stylin’.


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