Larry Brennan in Hamburg
The fourth and (I believe) last speaker from the Hamburg symposium on Scientology’s impact and reach within the U.S. has been posted by AboutScientology. Larry Brennan presents a wealth of knowledge to the German government officials, media and Anons in the audience.
Explore posts in the same categories: Anonymous, New Voices
THE WOG BLOG from XENU TV 
September 27, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Transcript for first part. More will appear later, if it’s ok with you, Mark. Watch this space as enturb is dead now.
Hi, I’m Larry Brennan. I was asked to speak by Ursula. […] the background, as to where I’m coming from: I’ve worked for 8 years in the Guardian’s Office of the organized Scientology. The last five years from 76 to 81, I was in charge of all their legal matters outside of the court for the world, including germany and europe, out of Saint Hill Manor, in East Grinstead, Sussex, England. After that for a few years I went to Los Angeles, we did the corporate reorganization of Scientology. And I became posted as a member of what was called the “Special Unit”, became the “Special Unit in charge” and a member of what they call in Scientology the Watchdog Committee. Allegedly in Scientology the Watchdog Committee are the twelve top people in Scientology, and we were, except for the fact that secretly we were really run by David Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard. My last couple of years, I was on the Watchdog Committee. Anyway, […] background and I’m working on a lot of their legal stuff that I […] this information. First of all, there is no way in a talk of this duration that […] even approach details, so I’m just gonna give a […] some reason, a couple of little examples on each point. I have for people that might be interested, later, I have a declaration that goes into a lot more detail as well. I know […] and answers and there’s some stuff tomorrow for questions and answers too and I’ll be glad […] more information. So this is just a general outline. First of all, I think that it’s important to know, […] very intentionally developed religious cloaking in organized Scientology with the intention of […] being able to operate, because basically it was feared […] the practice of psychology without a license. I mean, you’re doing stress tests and oxford capacity analysis test and doing evaluations on them and telling them what’s wrong with them […] your money, sounds a lot like psychology to me. So, what we do, is, I used to get every psychological practice act in every state and country of the world: cantons in Switzerland, provinces in Canada, and whenever we would get them, we would amend them to exempt religions or ministers of religions. Then we would work very heavy on cloaking Scientology in religious practices and look and feel, so that by that way, it could be […] from the laws of practicing psychology without a license. But the other “benefits” of religious cloaking, the reason why they did it, had to do with avoiding a whole lot of other laws besides that. I mean, they don’t pay minimum wage, they have awful working hours, they heavily abuse their staff. There’s lots of things that around the world, where laws are being violated unless somehow they were exempted as ministers of religious orders. So, in any event, I want to give you an idea like… Scientology will say, that they are religious and policies go well before my […] Hubbard had said they are a religion and all that. And that’s all fine, but […] but would you like to know what is really said behind the scenes? And I’m gonna give an example of a confidential Hubbard order from 1979 and this was the order that started the entire missions. The missions of Scientology […] in Hamburg there’s an organization and just below the organization are missions and they’re usually smaller operations that deliver […] introductory Scientology services. The missions of Scientology are – everything’s run by David Miscavige – but they’re run under an organization called SMI: Scientology [Missions] International. I needed to define that for you cause he mentions SMI in this order. So, before there was [?] of Scientology Missions International, Hubbard was writing to a member of his Commodore’s Messenger Organization and the Guardian’s Office, about how he could set up SMI. I’ll let you determine, if the little bit I’m going to quote here – or, well I’ll take a couple of minutes – sounds very religious. But I want to tell you, this is a typical example of hundreds of orders like this, that the public never get to see. Ok, this is Hubbard talking in 1979 and it’s about starting Scientology Missions International, SMI:
“Do you realize that when this organization is put together as a Church from SMI, it will have all manner of tax benefits and everything else. It can trade, buy property etc., etc. and all of these things are tax exempt. This is one hell of a sales pitch that can be launched back of this. In the last issue of “Spotlight” newspaper there was an ad from a [Hensal] or [Bensal] of the United Church league, or some such thing, and he laid out the benefits of being a church under the heading of the “fastest growing religion in the world.” This guy sells ordinations, and is getting away with it. What this guy said is true. It has terrific, terrific advantages from a tax point of view to run a church. One has to sort out the sales pitch, how one will get money from it, the advantages, and get this fully understood by anybody along the line, or nobody will be able to sell a damn thing. These new franchises” -that’s the new missions- “will have to be marketed, marketed, marketed. It’s a piece of cake. You can sell a dozen of them in every major city in the world. They gain in this enormous tax advantages, a good business that pays money, ways and means to invest money and hold money without tax ripoff and it’s actually like selling warm mittens to a frozen eskimo.”
Now, that is the type of communications that we in the head of the corporate department of Scientology got all the time. It was nothing about “We’re going to save the world” “We’re a religion” and “We’re here for the [good] of mankind”. It was: “We have to cloak this in religion and […] to do that are tremendous tax and other benefits.” And I’m, I wanted, I obviously can’t […] a lot of these things, [?] [wanted to] bring a lot of those with me, but […] makes the point. When I was on the Watchdog Committee we got an order like this every single week for almost two years from Hubbard. And there were hundreds of these orders otherwise. So even behind other Scientology fronts, like the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises or Narconon or what have you, there are LRH orders that have to do with how to control people through this, how to make money, how to pretend we’re a social betterment, but what we’re really doing is funneling people into Scientology this way and this way we can get on the side of the governments and what have you. And the other thing as to religious cloaking was to even make governments afraid of the [?] of Scientology. You know, that they were intruding onto religion. And organized Scientology would be quite willing to spend millions of dollars to fight anybody in that area. So, in any event, that was what was behind why they were doing religious cloaking and why it was intentionally made to look like Scientology was a religion. And, the other thing we did […] is, we did two things. One was, to make up things that were not anything to do with Scientology and put [them in] so we looked like a “church”. And it’s silly really, but I mean it’s like… sunday service. There isn’t a Scientology sunday service. It’s nothing to do with the auditing and the training and so forth. [It was] created to make it look like “Well, it’s a sunday service”. The roman minister collars, from like the catholic church [and other] churches. There wasn’t any reason that anybody [in] Scientology had to wear a roman minister collar, except to try to look like a church. So a lot of things were done [intentionally] to fraudulently represent Scientology as being a religion. And […] the other things were done [with what it did] like for example: I have paid 400.000 Dollars for Scientology services and so forth -[…] how smart I am- and in any event […] termed like we say “fixed donations”. Well, I can guarantee you, I could not have done “Clear” or I could not have done what they call their “Operating Thetan Levels” unless I gave an exact amount of money. This would be 50.000 Dollars or [76.000] Dollars. But no, they try to make it look like a […] calling it “fixed donation”. So there’s a lot of words that were used to play around with that and then […] that was done, which they still use today […] scholars. There are a number of religious and theological and even legal scholars that have come out, and Scientology has pushed out statements from them, that Scientology is a religion and the Church of Scientology is a religious organization. How did that come about? Well, it was my area that basically started […] program back in ’75. And [what] the PR and the legal departments for the Guardian’s Office, and what we used to do is, we would make up things. There’s a book from 1978 called “What is Scientology”. I know you can’t see […] but […] show it to people later and it has my name in it. I was one of the authors of the book, just to tell you I’m not making this up. [part 2 0:12]
September 28, 2008 at 7:55 am
part 2 0:12 to part 3 0:15
And in there we had the religious ceremonies of Scientology and we would show […] to scholars. So they would see stuff [that] generally we had generated. They didn’t get to talk to anybody unless we picked the person and told them what to tell the scholar. [We] showed the scholars things like “this is our sunday service” […] , “this is our funeral ceremony”, “this is our [marriage] […]” What are they going to say? You’re a religon. So, it was intended to deepen that cloaking by [making] it look like the world, the scholars and the intellectuals of the world, are saying Scientology is a religion. And an example of this is in [1975] when the flag ship -the flag ship is the ship Hubbard was living on when he basically got kicked out England- and the top management was […] and they decided they had to go to shore for a number of reasons. [?] [going on the ship] they were losing [?] they didn’t have that much space, so they went into Clearwater, Florida. Well, I’m not going to go into [disputation] about just awful lies that were done and dirty tricks that were done in Clearwater, Florida, but one point that has to do with scholars: We applied for tax exemption, so that they could charge money for services […] sales tax. In Florida, like in many areas, [they] have a sales tax. You either have to have a dealer’s license, which means, you’re a dealer, you sell something, you pay sales taxes like the […] selling cigarettes or whatever or you have to have what is called a consumer’s certificate of exemption, and that means that you’re a religion or otherwise non-profit and you don’t have to collect sales [tax]. So, under Hubbard, who was there, they had applied for a consumer’s certificate of exemption and it was denied. And at the time I was in the United States Guardian’s Office in Los Angeles, so what [we] did was I took it over and Hubbard wrote to me and said […] asking me to get this, cause that’s the one way they could be [thrown] out of Clearwater. […] We grabbed a bunch of scholar’s opinions […] to Talahassee […] and the name of the President of the […] was down there at the time, Church of Scientology in Claifornia, we attached all these scholar’s opinions that “Scientology is a religion and blablabla” and they granted us exemption. So I’m just saying, [one] we did the cloak, we then sheltered what the scholars could see to get them to say it’s a religion and then we used it to get benefits like that. And that’s all the religion angle is, it’s to get the… because frankly, look at this: How do many people get into Scientology? I mean, I’ve seen so many Anon videos, which are awesome, of people that are out at a stress test. You go out in front of an organization of Scientology and you [go on the e-meter] and they determine your stress. And you go take an Oxford Capacity Analysis Mental Exam, 200 questions, and then they get an unqualified person, who has no training in psychology, to tell you what’s wrong with your life [that] you’re mentally depressed, you’re this, you’re that and then they sell you Scientology to handle it. [But what…? I mean: What?] If that isn’t the practice of psychology, I don’t know what is. But there’s such cloaking, that it’s a religion, that even things like that are overlooked by governments.
Ok, skipping past the religious cloaking point [there is] a corporate point. One was to cloak organized Scientology in religion, so as to be able to […] fight back all these laws and not have to apply them. […] to attack people, so they say “Oh, you’re interfering with religion.” There’s a wonderful young man in Anon in Boston […] now, that has had four criminal charges filed at […] two were filed on him which are totally phony – I know the guy is one of the nicest people you’d ever want to know, he’s not a criminal – [they] just filed a new one on him a couple of weeks ago and it says […] “Interference with a church doing the religious worship of god”. Well, other than the fact, that Scientology is not a religion, other than the fact that it doesn’t worship, other than the fact that it doesn’t believe in god, […] did really interfere with that, but they’ll throw up all that stuff not only to defend themselves against those laws, but to [attack] you, if you are attacking them. […] they’ve gotten away with it in a lot of ways and we’re hoping to stop [them from] getting away with it anymore, starting with him. The next area where they [cloaked] themselves was corporately and that’s the area I worked on the most and basically what you see now… You’ll see in the literature they handed out about me, they said: Larry Brennan worked in the corporate department, assisting attorneys and accountants and doesn’t know anything, because it was 25 years. Well, first of all, I didn’t assist attorneys and accountants, I ran [it]. I’m the one that brought the corporate planning, the start of Church of Scientology International, [the] mother church and all that and what we [would] do with RTC, Religious Technology Center, to David Miscavige and sat with him for five hours and taught him it. So I’m real familiar with what they did and why they did it. And the bottom line is: All of that stuff about RTC grants the trademarks and the Church of Scientology International has ecclesiastical authority over Germany, but not […] is nonsense. When we [did] the contracts for the german and all the european and all the Churches of Scientology around the world to sign, they weren’t [even allowed to read them]. When we appointed their board, when we [got] their boards of directors and officers appointed, we got undated resignations that are held by David Miscavige’s area in the United [States]. It’s a complete and total front. […] company […] Denmark for example, I was asked by Miscavige, I ran the royality contracts for Hubbard’s books with New Era Publications […] and I brought this big, thick royality contract to get signed in Copenhagen and they were not allowed to read it. They just had to [sign] here and whatever Hubbard said […] And that is literally – I know I’m [not giving] many examples, but I can later to anyone who is interested – that is literally, the entire corporate sortout is like that. […] just layers […] layers and the intention was […] the intention of some of us who were doing that, was, [we were] trying to get it straight and honest and there was going to be no […] any phoney money to Hubbard like there was. There was money […] and secretly funneled to Hubbard, several million Dollars. [We’re going to] stop that, it was all going to be straight, it was all going to be [honest]. It wasn’t, it became worse. In 1982 alone, if you read legal depositions of Homer Schomer in the Julie Kristofferson […] case, you’ll see 40 million Dollars were [funneled] to Hubbard in 1982 alone from the […] through liberian corporations [in Canada] and all that. And it was money that was […] out of mission holders and all that. It got [worse] after the corporate sortout. [And] the corporate sortout we thought was going to straighten it all out, it just made it possible for people like David Miscavige to hide, [if you target them] to hide [behind] all these corporate veils and all this religious [cloaking], […] but that’s all that was to it: It was to hide […] it was used to hide the people who were really in control, to make it look like you can’t get to them legally. Like if something horrible happens here in Germany you can’t […] to the US, because they are not legally responsible, whereas they actually run Germany completely, [hold on to] […] resignations, etc. And that was done under Hubbard orders and Miscavige. And, I think, the part that I […] to the most, is that when we put that corporate structure in, at the end of 81, [82] into 83, David Miscavige took it into […] and he [went], there were more people beaten in Scientology and had multiple person interrogations against their will, sent to penal camps, in 1982 alone under David Miscavige than in the 15 years [of] the Guardian’s Office [prior] to that. That’s how horrible it became after the [corporate] sortout. And he went to those same missions – you know, the [ones] I read that Hubbard order on how to make money on it – well, one thing you don’t know is that those missions had […] starter package of thousands of dollars [of] books, many thousands and Hubbard got royalties on all of them. But the other piece of the puzzle is, that three years later – that was a 1979 order – in 1982, Miscavige […] 40 million Dollars mostly from those mission holders who he had abused and beaten and had under multiple person interrogations […] money out of them, to Hubbard. That’s how bad […] and I will tell you, that […] [lying on it], Miscavige in the 1990s did declarations in a couple of cases. The Fishman case, [where] the Church of Scientology International and the Church of Scientology California versus Wollersheim case. And in it he denied that he was ever involved in [the running] of Scientology back then, he doesn’t order the Church executives, he said he and Hubbard weren’t involved in the [corporate sortout] or the cloaking. They are complete lies. There are 40 some pages of perjury […] what he said […] and like for example […] he said in an affidavit in the Wollersheim [claim] case. […] talking about the corporate restructuring of 81 and 82: “I was not involved in [that] restructuring, but I am aware of the events that led up to it.” So he’s [trying to say] You can’t sue me for what they did, right? […] on their own Religious Technology Center […] is not me talking, it said about David Miscavige – this is ten years later, right, obviously they forgot about the affidavit – here’s a quote from the [Religious] Technology Center webpage on David Miscavige: “Mr. David [Miscavige] worked tirelessly to protect the religion. [He authored] the early 1980’s [reorganization] of Church corporate and management structures, which have given the religion years of sustained growth and stable leadership”. So, [on] an affidavit in court, he said I was not involved [with it], on [his] PR page 10 years later on RTC […] he authored it. I can tell you, both are false: He didn’t [author] it, but he was heavily involved and he was the [final approval] point […].
October 1, 2008 at 2:43 pm
part 3 0:15 to end of part 3
Anyway, there’s a lot of […] but I’ve gotta wrap up. […] I’m going to say, why is it even important, you know, is it just complaining? Well, […] I’ll tell you why it’s important. [Why is it important] that Scientology is a centrally run organization in the US. From the US they control the german and [all] the european operations, Australia, Canada, all the world-wide operation. Why is that important? Well, I’ll tell you why: The true danger lurking [behind the] religious cloaking and those corporate veils […] Scientology’s intention to take over your educational systems, your political systems and to apply Scientology […] all around the world. […] danger of it and I want to give some quotes that are […] for this in wrapping up. This is […] Hubbard said in his speech called “Future Org [Trends]” – Org is short for organization, that means like a Scientology “church” – he said, this was going to tell, what would happen, what would the world be like if they made it clear […] talks about “Let’s have a clear planet” […] certain level in Scientology, right? […] couple […] this was the goal of Scientology: “You want to know what happens, when you clear everybody in that neighborhood? The only thing that Scientology center can become used for, is a political center. Because by the time you’ve done this, you are the government. Once the world is clear – a nation, a state, a city or a village – the Scientology-Organization in the area becomes its government! And once this has taken place the only policy accepted as valid is Scientology policy.” That means here is […] of the german constitution, in the […] Scientology policy. I’m going to go over a [Scientology policies:] […] disconnection from families, it includes [penal] camps, forced labor, those are the policies that are going to apply. But I’m going to tell you some of the worst things in a minute. Ok, democracy […] democracy, here are two very short Hubbard [quotes] on the subject of democracy, one is from the [policy] “Keeping Scientology Working”: “I don’t see that popular [measures] and democracies have done anything for man, but push him further into the mud. Democracy is only possible in a nation of Clears. And even they can make mistakes. When the majority rules, the minority suffers. The […] are always a minority.” So that’s his viewpoint on democracy. Ok […] part is the reason why I speak out, more than anything […] one of my greatest fears in Scientology, if Scientology [was] to become very popular […] Three Hubbard quotes about [what to do] with undesirables and who are undesirables, and think of what has happened in different countries in the world with undesirables before. […] First, Hubbard says “Perhaps, [at] some distant date, only the [unaberrated] person will be granted civil rights before law. Perhaps the goal will be reached at some future time, when only the unaberrated person can attain to and [benefit] from citizenship. These are desirable goals.” Alright, [in] another policy. Another book. “In any event, any person from 2.0 down on the tone scale” now, let me explain this for a second. I’m going to give you examples of who is below that, but Hubbard said there’s a scale of where you are, like when you’re real happy in life, you are here and when you are real sad in life, you are here- to oversimplify it, right? And at 2.0 and down are people who are doing [least] well in life. So he says: “Any person from 2.0 on the tone scale should not have in any thinking society any civil rights of any kind”. [Now], civil rights are freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of movement, freedom of thought, freedom of religion. Anybody who is [not] doing well in life has no rights. “There are two answers for handling [the] people from 2.0 down on the tone scale. The first one is to raise them on the tone scale by using Scientology processes.” Here is the scary part: “The other one is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow.” […] Who is below 2.0? Here is a list of people below 2.0 on the tone scale, think of everybody in society that might fit one of these definitions: Homosexuals- they will be disposed [of] quietly and without sorrow. People who are chronically in pain, people who are anxious, people who live in fear, who live in desperation or terror in life – these are people who need help obviously – people who […] [Hubbard] feels are overly sympathetic, overly [grieve], feel hopeless or undeserving or feel useless. People in that category should be disposed of quietly [and] without sorrow. If they are not, they should be sent to camps, they should be re-processed using Scientology, and if they don’t make it, they are disposed of. That is Scientology policy, that Hubbard says, will replace […] constitution. And this is the stuff they won’t talk about. But let me tell you something: If you don’t… if you think this is kind of crazy, or people [who would you argue this] with me: One, these are the words from the founder of Scientology himself. So this isn’t somebody [insane], you know, who is a Scientologist, just saying it. But also, take a look at, do you think this world is possible? [The best] way to tell [if it’s] possible is to see what happens at the top of Scientology. Mark is going to talk about this. But I [will] tell you: I have seen, I have walked into a room [when] David Miscavige – under perjury, under perjury […] in court, where he said, he was not [running] the tops of organized Scientology – I have seen him walk into the [heads] of organized Scientology, punch one right in the mouth, he would get about 15 guys standing […] noone can’t fight back, strangle [another one] right down to the floor, slap another one down, spit in people’s faces and really [take over] their divisions, all [the] while ten years later […] affidavits in courts, that he is not […] management of Scientology. This is what is really happening at the top. It’s the closest application of pure Scientology. People in Hamburg, Berlin, in those organizations, [most] of them don’t have a clue that this is what’s really happening. What’s happening at the top, close to David Miscavige […] people […] are imprisoned, they are behind barbed wire, they are [being beaten]… [These] policies I told you are being applied there and that’s a preview of what it’s like for the planet, should they get away, should they expand.
So, I’m going to skip, cause I think […] running out. Ok. What do you do [if you’re] organized Scientology, the people that are out here, right now. What do you do to detractors, people speaking [out], everyone wearing an anonymous mask [right now], myself, Ursula, everyone speaking out. What is Hubbard’s policy towards you? “People attack” this is a Hubbard quote from his “Manual of Justice”. “People attack Scientology – I never forget it. Always keep [even score]. People attack auditors or staff […] at me, I never forget until the slate is clear”. Ok, how about “[…] [Dissemination] of material”, another quote from Hubbard: “The purpose of a suit” – and I don’t mean this suit, I mean a legal suit, like when you [sue] somebody in court – “The purpose of a suit is to harass and discourage [rather] than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, if possible of course, ruin him utterly.” And then he goes on and on with policies “feed lurid, blood, sex, crime on people […] destroy them, financially destroy them” [from the PR perspective and lastly “if attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or any organization” – this is what OSA is trained on, these are the policies in their training manuals – “if attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or any organization always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace […] don’t ever [defend, always] attack”. So, I say again one thing I said earlier today. Ursula last year took me to Berlin. […] When I was there, she showed me a piece of the Berlin wall that still stands. And it stands as a reminder to everyone [to see] that this is never happening here again. […] It’s hard to compose myself when I think of it. But if you have organized Scientology [with] the policies I just quoted to you, taking over this place, you can consider that wall [rebuilt, because there’s going to] be plenty of camps. All these people I listed […] people you would have to say goodbye to, are off to penal camps until they’re reprogrammed or disposed of. And that […] if anything that’s a preview [of what it would be like] if Scientology were to run the world. And that’s why people need to speak […] So, the biggest thing that you can do against the abuses and crimes and lies by organized Scientology is to speak out the truth. That’s it. The truth is the greatest weapon, that’s all [that is asked for]. And they will fight hard to keep that truth from you, but it’s there if [somebody] […] to look hard enough. Even their own people […] top echelons, don’t know about some of [these horror stories] and many of these policies, they are not […], they are not in the Office of Special Affairs.
October 3, 2008 at 12:43 pm
part 4
Anyway, I really want to thank Ursula and her department for what they are doing here and to thank everybody here from other governments that are looking into Scientology, from the press, the concerned people fro speaking out. And I also really want to… I really want to thank Anonymous. And the reason is: They are not even an organization. It’s just like an [uprising] of people that are just not going to take this crap anymore. And all around the world [they’re speaking] out the truth and they do it month after month after month. I happen to know, when I have posted [on some sites] […] sometimes I get 20 or more e-mails from [people] that are now the people that have joined anonymous: Former Scientologists who were always afraid to speak out. […] loose their families if they spoke out. Who knew that they would have dirty tricks played on them if they spoke out and lived in fear and never [spoke out]. Now… ah! [laughter] Now they can put on the mask and speak out. And it’s funny that that’s the organization that organized Scientology attacks the most, because that’s the one that’s exposing them. I just want to say thank you. That’s it. Thank you, thanks a lot! [Applause]
October 3, 2008 at 2:53 pm
one more thing. just in case anyone needs access to some of the translations/transcripts at enturb, google cache is your friend in combination with “forums.enturbulation.org/44-german/”, e.g. “forums.enturbulation.org/44-german/das-system-scientology-11392/5/”
Same goes for any other part of enturb you would like to have access to. Up to question 21 the current version of the inofficial translation of the bavarian brochure “Das System Scientology” may also be found here: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=df9wzghx_0fhxjxfdm
Maybe someone could notify “Moar Xenu II” at anon-hh.ning.com of all of this, hope it helps.
that is all
October 11, 2008 at 1:24 am
Oh hai!
I found this checking out Mark’s site after being away for many months. Such great work indeedindeed. These transcriptions are invaluable.
Anon delivers.
December 16, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I like all this very much and would like to download and work on the text of the Bavarian document. Is this possible? The only way I can get access seems to be through this site or from WWP where I asked already this evening. A straight Google search just comes back here. Maybe Indeedindeed could advise? PM me on WWP?
February 13, 2009 at 10:46 pm
A rough translation of the German 25 questions document:
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=df9wzghx_0fhxjxfdm
I also found this super bizarre page that looks like some sort of group of scientologists splitting off from the main organization, maybe someone with more knowledge of the inner workings of scientology may find this interesting (uses several scientology terms):
http://www.galac-patra.org/
September 28, 2012 at 8:32 am
ok